Machiavelli and What Makes a Great Leader

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Post by Admin on Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:42 am

What does Machiavelli argue makes a great leader? On the island, who do you think would make the best leader? Why?

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Post by Szilvia on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:01 am

Machiavelli states how a leader must be feared rather than hated, and points out the fact that a feared leader can be merciful, but a merciful leader must be feared (depending on the situation). In my opinion, a leader can be feared out of the people misunderstanding his ways, he might be merciful and doing the people good while they do not notice. A hated leader is decided to be hated upon. People generally don't want to listen or pay any attention to the things they hate. In LOTF, Ralph takes the responsibility of being a leader while Jack is striving to do the same, Ralph cares more for shelter, and looks ahead of time to keep safe against weather, while Jack just focuses on food, and accomplishing his goal he has with his own self of finally killing a pig.

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Post by VP on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:05 am

Machiavelli believes that a good leader is made up of many different qualities. A leader should have the support of the people because it’s difficult to take action without their support, hold good virtues, always rely on his or her own arms, and he or she should be intelligent. In my opinion, the best leader in the Lord of the Flies would be Ralph, because Ralph worries more about the practical needs of the group while Jack mainly focuses on his own goals like killing the pig.

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Post by Jinmeng Jiang on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:10 am

Machiavelli's believes that a great leader is one fueled by fear instead of mercy. He discusses the idea of being feared over being loved, and how fear maintains order. Machiavelli argues that friendship and trust are fleeting and unreliable in times of crises. According to "The Prince", a true leader is wise enough to be "in his own control and not that in others; he must endeavor only to avoid hatred" (5).
With this philosophy in mind, I believe the best leader to be Ralph. Even though in terms of brains and rationale, Piggy probably trumps Ralph, it is clear that no one is willing to listen to him or respect him because of his stature, build, and name. Unlike Piggy, the boys listen to Ralph when he has the conch and views him as a leader. He has the drive, tenacity, and the presence of a leader.

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Post by Drew on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:15 am

Machiavelli argues that a good leader should be feared, should have the support of the people, and be virtuous. Machiavelli states, "A man who wishes to live up to his professions of virtue in every circumstance soon meets with what destroys him among so many who are evil". A display of virtue is good for a leader. Ralph would be the best leader because he cares about the group as a whole.

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Post by alleysun on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:19 am

Machiavelli argues that it is better to be feared than loved, but still maintain mutual respect with the people in order to avoid being hated. In Lord of the Flies, Ralph would make the best leader because he thinks for the entire population on the island, not just personal goals like Jack. Also, unlike Piggy, Ralph is assertive and confident, which spurs some degree of respect and fear from the rest of the boys.

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Post by @drew on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:20 am

I agree with your statement 100%. Ralph does seem like he'd make the best leader due to his care and concern for necessary means of survival. Jack on the other hand would not make as good of a leader compared to Ralph.

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Post by jfithian on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:20 am

Machiavelli says that a great leader can be composed of many different qualities. A prince must be kind and merciful, must keep his subjects united and loyal, and the leader should be feared but also loved. I personally think Ralph would make the best leader, because i feel like Jack just wants the title of being leader.

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Post by Tzeng on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:21 am

Machiavelli argues that a great leader is able to rule through his or her own will, rather than the will of others. What he means, essentially, is that a leader should ensure that his or her followers follow him because they need to or fear him or her rather them following him or her because they want to, "men loving according to their own will and fearing according to that of the prince.:" (Machiavelli paragraph 5). According to Machiavelli's philosophy, no one on the island truly fits the role of a leader. Ralph rules since he was elected through the conch and not fear, and there is no one anyone truly fears on the island. However, it seems that Piggy might make a good leader if he could strike fears into the children's hearts since he seems to have the greatest mindset for what needs to be done.

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Post by Avila-G on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:23 am

Machiavelli argues in his excerpt from "The Prince" he explains that a good leader "should wish to be both [feared and loved]" (Machiavelli 2). He also explains some other qualities about how a leader should mainly be feared because that way you can control the people that they are trying to govern. On the Island in "Lord of the Flies", I personally believe that Piggy would make the best leader because at this point he seems to be the only child with the most common sense, and governing skills. Even though Ralph and Jack seem to lead more on empty promises and good guesses and are loved more by the other children, Piggy seems to have the most rational decision making skills out of the three of them.

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Post by Nikowleesun:^/ on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:23 am

Machiavelli's idea of a great8 leader is that a leader must be feared to have loyal followers, and a more lenient leader is more likely to be betrayed. People are less afraid to betray a leader that is more merciful, because they believe that the leader will not reprimand them for it. On the island, Ralph makes the best leader, because he possesses a lot of the stereotypical traits of a good leader such as: determination, motivation, and true courage.

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Post by brunny on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:25 am

machiavelli says that to be a great leader, you must be feared rather than loved, inspiring fear that does not earn hatred. "it is much safer to be feared than loved...inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred." in Lord of the Flies, Jack would have been the best leader since he already had a lot of knowledge about survival skills and being a good leader to his choir.

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Post by sarah on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:26 am

Machiavelli argues that a great leader needs to know how to do wrong and to make use of it or not according to necessity. A leader has to learn from their mistakes and use that as an advantage to make the kingdom a better place. A prince must be nice, but also cruel in some factors to keep his subjects loyal. On the island, I believe "Piggy" would've been a great leader if he wasn't neglected. He had the most common sense, and was smart enough to make sure the boys aren't wondering around. He was the young adult in the stranded boys.

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Post by VP on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:26 am

I agree with you on all your stated qualities of a leader and what you stated earlier about Ralph being the best leader was very true. He would be the best, because he possess all the characteristics which you stated earlier.

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Post by morgan on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:27 am

Machiavelli believes that a leader should be kind, merciful and avoid cruelty. He also says that a leader should not be bothered with the repercussions of any non permissive or strict actions and he or she must not be too lenient as to prevent disorders from rising. I believe that Simon would make the best leader on the island. Simon embodies morality and kindness in his actions, something none of the other boys possess. Simon treats everyone, including to younger boys, with respect.

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Post by sarah on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:29 am

Yes, Ralph and Jack could be great leaders, but by the end of Chapter 3, they start to disagree with each other as Jack is more focused on food than shelter and he doesn't bother to help or care about the other boys. Ralph is being the responsible one to make the shelters and being the leader, while the other boys don't have a care in the world.

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Post by Szilvia on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:29 am

I agree with your statement, but everyone's leadings can be looked into with more depth. A leader should be respected and feared by the people, it is always good to keep a good relationship with their people and partners but the tables can always turn. Ralph seems like the best leader out of all the boys we have met through the story so far, he is respected by most and he is responsible, he also tries to provide for everyone and not only himself. For example, In Chapter 3 (if im not mistaken), Ralph complains to Jack about the fact that he and Simon are the only ones building huts and shelter. If the boys do not help him in building shelters or taking any part in helping, do you think Ralph would keep himself as this calm, social, respectful leader? Or would he "lash out" at the others, slowly forming tension and hate over time?

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Post by Lindseyreyes on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:55 am

Machiavelli argues that a great leader is someone who is feared because "it is better to be feared than loved". I agree with him because if others do not have some kind of fear in the leader then they will not respect the leader or follow the rules. On the island, I personally believe that Piggy would make the best leader because while all the other boys are sort of messing around, they are not getting all the things done that are necessary to their survival. Ralph is an okay leader, but he does not have that much authority and the other boys do not always listen to him and some of them just lay around all day and Ralph has not said anything to them. The reason I think Piggy would be the best fit for a leader is because he made a good point when he said, "'How can you expect to be rescued if you don't put first things first and act proper?'"(45).

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Post by div.dan on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:58 am

Machiavelli's principles surround the idea that a good leader instills fear instead of love and has the support of his/her people. His take on making mistakes is that a good leader should always utilize them to their advantage. He believes it is important to distance yourself from distractions and in order to keep order and control, everyone must be unified. I believe Ralph would make the best leader in Lord of the Flies since he thinks about the practical needs of the whole group while Jack mostly thinks about himself. Machiavelli says "Cesare Borgia... unified it, and restored it to peace and loyalty." Only Ralph would be able to be this leader as people actually choose to listen to him.

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Post by AriF on Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:01 am

Machiavelli argues that to be a great leader, one must be feared but not hated. This will keep subjects controlled and loyal. Also cruelty is not a bad thing as long as it is not out of control. In Lord of the Flies, Ralph is a leader who is loved so the other boys don't always listen to his commands. Piggy would make a great leader if he wasn't hated. He is smart and tells the harsh truth but everyone hates him so they refuse to listen to him.

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Post by Danielle_Ikar on Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:05 am

Machiavelli argues that a leader should be cruel if necessary, but also kind. Usually, one should try to be loved, but if circumstances call for it, being feared is preferred. Ralph, the current leader in Lord of the Flies, is not turning out to be fit to lead. He is not calculating the consequences, and he is not acting as a leader. Piggy would make a much better leader than Ralph. He sees what's wrong with Ralph's way, and he knows how to be better. He even points out some criticisms to Ralph. Piggy seems to be more realistic than Ralph, and the boys need that to survive. If Piggy was leader, the boys would have a much better chance of surviving.

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Post by Olivia.ogs on Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:07 am

Machiavelli's ideals for a good leader is all about balances. They must be feared over hated, merciful, but not to the point where it is dangerous, and more. While this list of requirements would be ideal for a real life society, the society that must be created in Lord of the Flies must have a different kind of leader, because they would be ruling over a large group of young boys. For example, while Piggy could be a great leader in a society because he is thoughtful and fair, he is not decisive enough and too much of a pushover to effectively take control of a population of young children. Because of this, Ralph is showing to be the best leader so far. While he is not a perfect match to Machiavelli's standards, he is willing to take control and give orders to try and sort the situation out.

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Post by Lindseyreyes on Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:08 am

I agree with your idea that if Piggy was not hated, he would make the best leader. When I fist amswered this question, I didn't keep in mind that to be a good leader you must be feared, but not hated, which Piggy unfortunately is. He would be the best leader if he could everyone to respect and listen to him because he does have good ideas.

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Post by Danielle_Ikar on Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:09 am

Jack and Ralph are unfit leaders. They spend all their time fighting about food and what's been going on during the day rather than strategizing to prepare for the worst. They are bickering rather than being actual leaders. Piggy would do a much better job as a leader because he actually thinks about their situation.

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Post by SamB on Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:10 am

A good leader is respected and feared. A leader is selfless, but at the same time selfish. Most leaders don't want to be hated, but can take criticism. Almost every good leader can see the good outcome in a bad situation. A leader "inspires fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred".

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