What rules should govern leaders? Use text evidence to support ideas.

I feel as though a leader might not be good at all for the group. Although they require some sort of governing body, a leader is not required to complete this task. I do agree that piggy is the most qualified, but all three boys have pluses and minuses to their personalities. The best thing for them is a group of leaders that make decisions together.

Princes should have open hands when ruling decisions, because it allows them to hear their peoples' opinions and give them a new perspective. While Ralph is in charge in "Lord of the Flies", he also listens to other people's ideas. For example, whenever the Piggy has an idea, the other boys will not follow it unless Ralph agrees with it.

Princes should have an open mind and take into consideration of all opinions, however rules should apply to the leaders so they don't have all the power. In LOTF, Ralph becomes the supposed leader of the group, I feel like Piggy is the master mind behind in the stranded land. Ralph has limited power of some sort, since Jack also has some say in the group. However, he doesn't really care for the group, and is selfish. All he cares about is the food. Ralph takes consideration of the group's opinion which is good, but he doesn't know how to control them.

I agree that Ralph and Jack are the leaders in the group, but do they really make all the decisions? Piggy suggested to make a fire, but no one would listen until Ralph suggested to do so. I think that Ralph is the spokesperson of the group and Piggy remains in the shadow of group.

I agree with your statement entirely as Piggy is being underrated. Using Machiavelli's ideas, you can contrast the two articles and see the similarities in the leaders. Since Machiavelli believes a leader should be smart and learn from his own mistakes, these characteristics are describing Ralph.

The concept of a leader having "open hands" is one that should be evident amidst the decision-making process. A leader should take into consideration the opinions of others and adjust based on suggestions, for it would prove for a more effective and widely accepted system, benefiting both the people and the leaders. In Lord of the Flies, the boys start off stranded, scarcely separated by vegetation and wilderness. Since they are all in the same situation, the boys all take place in delegating tasks and making decisions. Ralph and Jack, the two most prominent leaders of the pack, look towards the boys for agreement and are left with no choice but to have "open hands" since they are in a situation between survival and death. The reason why I think Ralph and Jack are considered leaders is because they have an air of confidence and maturity that makes the younger ones want to lean onto them and follow their directions. Especially Ralph, who the others look for permission to do things.

Do you think the boys' "democracy" is effective? The reasons they chose Ralph are pretty superficial.

Should princes have "open hands" when making ruling decisions--meaning should they rule without restrictions? Who is in charge among the boys in Lord of the Flies? Does this person have limited power or carte blanche?

Princes should not have "open hands", however, without a degree of freedom of decision by a prince, nothing would be done as there would rarely be a agreement. Therefore, a prince should have set guidelines which allow him to make certain decisions while leaving other decisions to a majority. In "Lord Of The Flies", Ralph is the leader as he is voted in by majority. Ralph has the stronghold of power in the beginning of the novel, as he makes the vast majority of the decisions. However, as the novel progresses, characters like Jack being to share the power and hence, Ralph beings to have limited power.

@Jinmeng Jiang

You state that the younger of the 'pack' refer back to Jack and Ralph for decision making, however, in many circumstances the younger children in the group do not listen to the leaders as Ralph states (referring to the young kid hunters) "people don't help much" (William Golding, 54). Therefore, the leaders are not controlling (as they said themselves) and instead do not have total control over the "littluns" (William Golding, 54).

A good prince should be willing to take other people's thoughts and opinions into consideration. Princes should have opening hands which according to Machiavelli, means "having decisions flexible". Princes should always be open minded as well, taking in ideas  from everyone around them and incorporating them into their own for the benefit of everyone else. Princes are always looking out for their people and their needs as well. For example, Ralph orders the boys to build shelters not only for Ralph himself but for everyone else too.

Princes should rule with restrictions that they impose upon themselves, which they can make by considering the other people's interests before making decisions and laws. According to Machiavelli, "it is necessary for a prince wishing to hold his own to know how to do wrong, and to make use of it or not according to necessity" (Machiavelli 71). With this knowledge, Princes should rule and take this into consideration and use that as restrictions when making decisions. On the island, Ralph is in charge of the population. Although he has the power to make any decisions he wants and have the people follow them, he has some restrictions because of the lack of cooperation among the younger children and disagreement with the others with common sense. In this sense, he is limited in power on the island.

When you say that a good prince should be willing to take other people's thoughts into consideration, do you believe that there are times that a prince should ignore other people's thoughts and make his decision anyways? What kind of situation would it be before he would have to take this step in decision making?

A great ruler should rule with open hands. If he or she listens to other people's opinions & ideas they can make decisions that help the group as a whole. However, Machiavelli believes that a ruler should not rule with open hands & be strict with their rules. The main leader in Lord of the Flies is Ralph. Ralph is not limited in his rule. Whatever Ralph says goes no matter who opposes. For instance, if Piggy suggests an idea & if it gets shot down by Ralph the idea is immediately forgotten. An example of this is when Piggy said they should build shelter first, but when Ralph suggested a fire everyone went racing towards the top of the mountain.

Princes should have restrictions when they make ruling decisions. The prince should get his/her people's consent before instilling decisions so he/she can represent them. If a prince has no restrictions, he/she could do whatever they want to do, even if it makes life miserable for his/her people. In Lord of the Flies, Ralph was voted chief of the survivors when all of them gathered at the beach. Almost everyone wanted him for chief besides the choir group due to their power hungry leader, Jack. During the election, "every hand outside the choir except Piggy's was immediately. Then Piggy, too, raised his hand grudgingly into the air. Ralph counted" and said "I'm chief then" (Golding 23). Ralph technically has carte blanche yet he sometimes has his decisions challenged by Ralph.

I definitely agree with you. It is the prince's duty to represent his people and the only way he can do that is if he has open hands and hears his own people's opinion. I also agree with how Ralph can make his decisions based off other peoples' opinions/requests.

Rulers need to rule with open hands. They need to be able to welcome and hear others' ideas before making an important decision. By this principle, in Lord of the Flies, Ralph is in power. Ralph is not only recognized as the chief, but he also listens to others' ideas.This is shown when Ralph allows his former "political" opponent to have some say, "They can be--what do you want them to be?" (Golding 23). Ralph listens to another's ideas and then makes a decision based off of it. On the other hand, his power is still limited as not every boy listens to him all the time. This is demonstrated when all the "littluns" run off to play instead of building shelters, obviously frustrating Ralph, "they'd work for five minutes, then wander off or go hunting... And we want shelters." (Golding 51).

Princes should have "open hands" if it means that allows them to make the best decisions for their people. If there are too many restrictions put on a leader, the decisions and rules that they make will not be as beneficial as they could be without rules. Ralph is in charge on the island. He has a lot of power and it is power without restriction because there are no other strong leaders. Piggy and Jack are not respected and authoritative enough to become leaders. This only leaves Ralph to lead the boys and he does so well. The boys listen to every word he says, and they always follow every direction given by Ralph. This is shown when Ralph says to make some signal smoke. "You said Ralph was chief...when he says something you rush off"(Golding 45).

I agree with your post. Ralph does have all of the power in a way, but he is still able to listen to other's ideas to make a decision that will be beneficial for all of the boys. This shows that Ralph is truly a good leader because he is able to kindly ask opinions from his "political opponent" from the beginning. Though he can be kind, he can also be a strong leader and order the boys to build shelters or work. This shows his limited powers quite well because he is not a feared dictator who everyone listens to. The boys occasionally don't listen to him, but it doesn't happen often.

Princes should have restrictions when they make decisions. It would keep them from committing atrocities in the name of success. If the had no restrictions, then the would do what needs to be done to accomplish goals. "every hand outside the choir except Piggy's was immediately. Then Piggy, too, raised his hand grudgingly into the air. Ralph counted" (Goulding 23) This shows the amount of power given to a leader. During the election of the boys, the vote was almost unanimously for Ralph, Except for the choir boys who were manipulated by Jack.

I definitely agree with you. Jack has the ability to manipulate his choir group, and does to reach power. He has a machiavellian approach to leadership, and tries to push his agenda on everybody else.

That last post was me I messed up

A leader shouldn't have open hands when making decisions. It is important to protect the rights of those who are ruled. Separation of power, as philosophized by de Montesquieu, works well because it prevents corruption from easily manipulating a ruler. In Lord of the Flies, Ralph is the elected leader, however he is not a strong one. His power is very limited by the island and the fear the island places on the boys.

Princes or leaders should not be able to lead without restriction. Instead, they should have rules and regulations that ensure the safety and well being of the people who are being led. In addition, the leader must be chosen properly in order to have someone who will do more good than harm for the people. In LOTF, Ralph is the leader, but, as with most, he could use some restriction in order to keep the power out of one person's hands.

I certainly agree with you. Why do you think things are like this within the community of boys?

No, I don't think Piggy should be the leader. Although he may have some sense of leadership and intellect, he does not have what Ralph has. Ralph has the respect and admiration of the boys.